DUCH DISCUSSES PURGES, INDONESIA

In his last full day of testimony, S-21 detention center chief Kaing Guek Eav continued his contentious time on the witness stand, with the defense for Khmer Rouge leaders Nuon Chea and Khieu Samphan continuing their effort to question his knowledge and memory of the inner workings of the genocidal regime.
 

Anta Guisse, a lawyer for Mr. Samphan, continued her questioning from the day before, asking him about a meeting with Mr. Samphan that directly contradicted statements he previously made of never meeting him. In addition, she asked him about the arrest and execution of other Khmer Rouge leaders.
 

Ms. Guisse confronted Mr. Guek Eav, commonly known as Duch, over his lack of knowledge about the way the Khmer Rouge was run, telling him: “You were far from the center. You did not know how the center or Politburo functioned.”
 

“My previous response was clear,” Mr. Guek Eav said. “If you are a person with a brain you should understand it well.”
 

Victor Koppe, a lawyer for Mr. Chea, then took over, continuing his line of questioning from previous days about potential plots to overthrow the Khmer Rouge.
 

Mr. Koppe spent a significant portion of the day on 10 statements from former combatants from Division 310 describing a plan to take over a radio station and the airport in Phnom Penh.
 

“These statements are just surreal and do not seem to be a concrete plan at all,” he told the court. “I do not believe these statements at all.”
 

Mr. Koppe also asked him about the purges of communists in Indonesia in 1965, with the help of the United States, and whether they had any effect on the Khmer Rouge.
 

“The Khmer Rouge at that time learned about the situation in Indonesia,” he said. “The coup d’état in Indonesia was engaged by the Americans to topple the three organs in Indonesia. I was thinking that the situation may happen in Cambodia.”
 

Attempting to bring much of his questioning over the past few days to a head, Mr. Koppe asked Mr. Guek Eav about his general knowledge of the major crimes committed by the Khmer Rouge and whether they were definitive, party-led stances.
 

Mr. Guek Eav initially said he was unaware of any policy to commit genocide against Cham Muslims, to which Mr. Koppe forcefully responded in his next question.
 

“So you were unaware of any policy to target Vietnamese citizens, unaware of policy to kill Lon Nol soldiers, unaware of policy to exterminate the Cham and unaware of a policy on forced marriages,” Mr. Koppe said to Mr. Guek Eav before receiving tough rebukes from both the court president and members of the prosecution.
 

“There were no documents stating party lines about these issues,” Mr. Guek Eav said in response.
 

Mr. Guek Eav will finish his time on the witness stand on Monday morning.

http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/26492/duch-discusses-purges--indonesia/

DUCH, KOPPE TRADE BARBS AT TRIBUNAL

The Khmer Rouge tribunal turned testy yesterday, with Victor Koppe, co-lawyer for Khmer Rouge leader Nuon Chea, going toe-to-toe with former S-21 chief Kaing Guek Eav throughout his time on the witness stand.
 

Mr. Koppe covered a variety of topics yesterday during Case 002/02 against Khmer Rouge leaders Khieu Samphan and Mr. Chea, asking Mr. Guek Eav, also known as Duch, about Vietnamese-backed coup attempts against Pol Pot and the arrest and torture of Khmer Rouge commanders.
 

Since he started questioning last week, Mr. Koppe has traded subtle barbs with Mr. Guek Eav over his penchant for long-winded, off-topic answers, but yesterday, things came to a head.
 

Mr. Koppe, continuing with his underlying effort to disprove Mr. Guek Eav’s testimony by pointing out holes in his memory and inconsistencies in his testimony, attacked the witness on an issue that he has been hinting at this week: that Mr. Guek Eav’s testimony should not be believed precisely because of his consistent claim that he was not involved in some of the more unsavory aspects of the S-21 detention center.
 

After repeated denials and verbose obfuscations on a previous question, Mr. Koppe lost a bit of his cool and openly asked Mr. Guek Eav how he could be trusted to testify about the atrocities committed at S-21 if, as Mr. Guek Eav has said repeatedly, he spent most of his days secluded while reading confessions from prisoners.
 

Mr. Guek Eav did not even know how many men were in his cadre, Mr. Koppe told the court.
 

Mr. Guek Eav shot back a vehement response, telling Mr. Koppe: “The head of S-21 was not a stupid person! The chief of S-21 knew everything.”
 

The back-and-forth continued in the afternoon, with Mr. Koppe verbally sparring with not only Mr. Guek Eav, but Assistant Prosecutor Dale Lysak as well.
 

The court president and others criticized Mr. Koppe for some of the questions posed to Mr. Guek Eav about his own testimony or quotes from unverified sources.
 

Mr. Guek Eav also received his fair share of criticism from Judge Claudia Fenz for his claim that any document not provided to him before his testimony must be “full of inconsistencies.”
 

When asked a series of questions about a list of prisoners at S-21 and whether some had escaped or been released, Mr. Guek Eav angrily complained that the question had not been presented clearly.
 

“Do not confuse people. We are here to find the truth for the court and the Cambodian people,” he said to Mr. Koppe.

http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/26380/duch--koppe-trade-barbs-at-tribunal/

DUCH: HUN SEN ABOVE ME IN KR

Former S-21 chief Kaing Guek Eav commented on current Prime Minister Hun Sen’s place in the Khmer Rouge hierarchy during yesterday’s hearing for Case 002/02 involving Khmer Rouge leaders Nuon Chea and Khieu Samphan.
 

Victor Koppe, a co-lawyer for Mr. Chea, ran all of yesterday’s hearing after a week of questions from the prosecution. Mr. Koppe continued to hammer Mr. Guek Eav, also known as Duch, with questions about dates and his memory before eventually moving on to his place in the Khmer Rouge hierarchy.
 

He started the day by questioning Mr. Guek Eav about when exactly control of the S-21 detention center was handed over to Mr. Chea after his superior Son Sen was transferred to a battle front. Mr. Koppe presented a variety of conflicting dates and testimonies about when the handover happened, but Mr. Guek Eav stuck to his guns and repeatedly said that August 15, 1977, was the exact day it happened.
 

Mr. Guek Eav’s rank within the Khmer Rouge then came to the fore, with Mr. Koppe asking specific questions about where he stood within the regime.
 

“I was in charge of an independent regiment. I was not a high level cadre,” he said. Mr. Guek Eav then compared himself to Mr. Hun Sen, claiming that the current premier had much more power and a higher standing within the Khmer Rouge than he ever did.
 

“He was the secretary of a special unit and a commander of a regiment, but he had combatants on his orders,” he told the court. “His soldiers were fully armed. No one dared to get in his way. I had nothing.”
 

Mr. Guek Eav said he had never known the prime minister personally, but Mr. Koppe continued to question him about Mr. Hun Sen. Mr. Guek Eav repeated his answer, albeit more dismissively.
 

“Hun Sen could flee to Vietnam with his fully armed soldiers, but I could not. I had nothing,” he repeated.
 

The mention of the prime minister comes on the heels of a request released to the public last week by the defense for Mr. Hun Sen and other senior military and government officials to appear in court to testify in the case. The defense has made this request multiple times, but was generally denied access.
 

Even if it was approved, government officials have told media outlets that no one from the government would testify because of parliamentary immunity – an ironic answer to some analysts who say the government is now disregarding the parliamentary immunity of some opposition party members.

http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/26336/duch--hun-sen-above-me-in-kr/

DUCH DISCUSSES LAST DAYS OF S-21

Judge Jean-Marc Lavergne took the driver’s seat during yesterday’s hearing in Case 002/02 involving Khmer Rouge leaders Nuon Chea and Khieu Samphan, peppering former S-21 chief Kaing Guek Eav with questions about massacres, photos of prisoners and the last days of the detention center.
 

Mr. Guek Eav, also known as Duch, confirmed a number of massacres committed by the Khmer Rouge, including the murder of 600 Thai soldiers in Kampong Som, now known as Preah Sihanouk province, and an unknown number of Cham citizens during their reign.
 

He later touched on the photos taken of prisoners at S-21 that have become infamous due to their prominence at the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum, which is the name used for S-21 now. The photos were taken on direct orders from Mr. Chea, despite Mr. Guek Eav’s anger at being forced to take them.
 

“If they don’t trust me, how can I carry out my work? That is what I asked them,” he said of the portraits, intimating that their original purpose was to ensure that the correct prisoners were being detained and eventually executed.
 

While most photos were kept at S-21, Mr. Guek Eav said he kept a set of photos of the Westerners killed at the center. He did not say why he decided to keep these specific photos, but mentioned that they were taken before the Westerners were killed and burned.
 

The testimony then turned to a discussion on the number of prisoners held at the facility. Mr. Guek Eav said the total number of prisoners held at S-21 throughout his time there numbered beyond 10,000.
 

Judge Lavergne posed a series of questions to him about the rises and falls in prisoner numbers, hoping to get some explanation for the wide disparities seen at times in Khmer Rouge files. Unfortunately Mr. Guek Eav rarely said anything beyond confirming the totals and repeating statements from his previous testimony.
 

“When there were too many prisoners, we were instructed to clear them out,” he said, reiterating a line he has said throughout his time on the stand in this case.
 

Judge Lavergne specifically asked about the fall of 1977, when thousands of prisoners were killed, according to Khmer Rouge records. On October 15, 1,799 prisoners were recorded at S-21. But by December 31, the number was down to 736.
 

“Sometimes a large number of prisoners had to be removed for incoming prisoners,” he said.
 

The orders to reduce the number of prisoners came directly from his superiors and usually came in advance of a large group being sent to the center for interrogation and execution. Mr. Guek Eav said they never knew about upcoming purges because detention centers across the country did not communicate with each other.
 

He told the court that Son Sen and Mr. Chea almost never asked about the number of prisoners, but often inquired about specific prisoners and whether they had been killed yet.
 

Mr. Chea played a significant role in the “confessions” extracted from prisoners, often taking out the names of people implicated depending on seniority or relation to upper echelon Khmer Rouge officials.
 

Specifically, Mr. Guek Eav discussed an instance when he was instructed to remove Mr. Samphan’s name from a “confession” after being harshly criticized by Mr. Chea. He was also forced to remove the name Poeun from a confession by Mr. Chea because he was the son-in-law of Ieng Sary, one of the Khmer Rouge founders.
 

Judge Lavergne managed to get the most commentary out of Mr. Guek Eav when he asked about the last day of Khmer Rouge control of S-21 on January 6, 1979.
 

Forces at the detention center received no advance warning of an impending invasion by Vietnamese-backed forces, and Mr. Guek Eav was advised to work as he normally did. But by 10am, things began to change.
 

“At about 10am, I heard the sound of tanks moving, and by 11 I knew that the [Vietnamese] tanks were approaching, so I left my house,” he said. “Brother Nuon never instructed me about anything.”
 

Mr. Guek Eav told the court he tried to gather weapons to fight the invading forces and get the documents that were still at S-21. But he decided against it and fled.
 

“I made mention that the documents remained and there was no instruction to destroy them,” he said. “I met Son Sen before I was sent to China and I made mention of the documents. He scolded me for not destroying them. In 1983 I was scolded by Brother Nuon for not destroying all of the documents as well.”

http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/26179/duch-discusses-last-days-of-s-21/

DUCH TALKS TORTURE, VIETNAMESE AT KRT

On his fourth day of testimony for Case 002/02 against Khmer Rouge leaders Khieu Samphan and Nuon Chea, former S-21 chief Kaing Guek Eav, also known as Duch, continued to deny any instances of rape took place at the infamous Khmer Rouge detention center and was questioned further about interrogation tactics as well as the treatment of Vietnamese prisoners.

Continuing her line of questioning on rape at S-21, Civil Party Co-Lawyer Marie Guiraud described a sexual assault involving a stick that was confirmed at the center by previous witnesses and asked Mr. Guek Eav what had been done to the soldier after he was accused.

In line with last week’s testimony, Mr. Guek Eav said he tried to punish the soldier, but was not allowed to because of “party rules.”

“I was angry. I told them to remove him from the women’s interrogation unit and I reported it to Son Sen,” he said. “I do not have the authority to make an arrest, so I tried to transfer him to another post. But no one reacted to my report so no one was ever arrested.”

He claimed to have created a special interrogation unit made up of the wives of the facility’s leaders because of the incident, but Ms. Guiraud immediately showed he may have been lying – two interrogators who worked at S-21 and testified previously said they had never seen any female interrogation unit and were often asked to interrogate women themselves.

She then moved on to sex and marriages at S-21, and questioned what happened to prisoners caught having sex.

“If people were caught in action outside of marriage, they were smashed,” he said. “Some were allowed, but most were arrested for misconduct.”

He added that the issue became more of a problem later on in the Khmer Rouge reign, even saying one man fled and joined an opposing army because his request for marriage was rejected.

Mr. Guek Eav harped on this point, often saying only cases like these, where prisoners were caught having consensual sex, were the only ones found. Rape, he said, was nonexistent.

“There were no cases of violent rape,” he said. “But there were cases of love.”

Torture and the Vietnamese

Mr. Guek Eav continued his attempts to partially absolve himself when questioned about torture tactics used at S-21. National Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Pich Ang asked him about testimony from a witness who claims to have had the nails on his big toes removed with pliers and a finger broken. Interrogators also put needles into his toes repeatedly.

“I instructed him [his subordinate] to stop this kind of practice,” he said of the toe nail removal. “I authorized electrocution. But I forbid them from killing any prisoners because we needed their confession.”

The need for confessions took new importance with Vietnamese soldiers who had been captured by the Khmer Rouge. Starting in January 1978, after the first Vietnamese soldier was brought to S-21, recordings of their confessions would be broadcast over loudspeakers on direct orders from Mr. Chea.

Mr. Chea would often edit the confessions to fit the needs and desires of the Khmer Rouge leaders. They even took the time to create a film about the Vietnamese army, using detained soldiers to act in the film before murdering them outside S-21.

Despite constant denials, obfuscations and question-dodging, Mr. Guek Eav did openly question and criticize the Khmer Rouge tactic of burying the dead after they were killed, saying the practice was not part of Khmer culture. Buddhist tradition generally calls for cremation as opposed to burials.

“For prisoners, after they were smashed, they were buried,” he said. “That was against our tradition. Against our customs.”

http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/26076/duch-talks-torture--vietnamese-at-krt/

DUCH DENIES RAPE AT S-21

Before starting his third day on the witness stand, Kaing Guek Eav, the former head of Khmer Rouge detention center S-21, was told by the court’s president that he was free to incriminate himself, as his trial had finished and he is already serving a life sentence for crimes against humanity.
 

Yet when asked yesterday about multiple accusations of rape at S-21 by Civil Party Co-Lawyer Marie Guiraud during testimony for Case 002/02 involving Khmer Rouge leaders Nuon Chea and Khieu Samphan, Mr. Guek Eav vehemently denied the charges, exclaiming: “Who dared to engage in sexual rape? Nobody.
 

“I don’t believe it was that easy to rape a woman in the open,” he added. “That person would have been beheaded.”
 

Ms. Guiraud continued to ask him about specific testimony from previous witnesses who claimed to have either seen or heard about rapes at the detention center. But Mr. Guek Eav refused to accept the allegations, even going so far as to defend the same Khmer Rouge leaders he had spent the previous days incriminating.
 

He started the line of questioning by admitting to one rape at S-21 involving one of his old teachers.
 

“I only knew of one case. A young man raped my former teacher. It was related to a mistake made during the interrogation process,” he said. “I believe there were not many instances of rape at S-21.”
 

But as he was asked more questions about specific instances of rape, he became more bullish and animated, slamming any assumption that rape was allowed at S-21 and even saying the accusations were fabricated.
 

In between his vehement denials, he managed to slip in excuses about why he may not have known about rapes at S-21, claiming at one point that it was his subordinate Ta Hor’s responsibility to handle any cases of sexual assault.
 

“It was not my responsibility,” he said. “And this does not reflect CPK [Communist Party of Kampuchea] policy.”
 

Mr. Guek Eav, known to many as Duch, started the day with more questions from Assistant Prosecutor Dale Lysak about the specifics of interrogations at S-21. He told the court the methods of torture often changed based on who was in charge.
 

When Ta Nat, Mr. Guek Eav’s predecessor, was in charge, electrocutions were more common and more prisoners were killed during torture. But when he took the reins, physical beatings were more prevalent.
 

He revealed a variety of horrifying facts about interrogations, including that women were often tortured by the wives of those in charge of S-21, and electrocutions were carried out by attaching phone lines to each of a prisoner’s big toes. His superior Vorn Vet suggested they use plastic bags to suffocate prisoners because they would not leave any bruises.
 

But Mr. Guek Eav seemingly tried to absolve himself of some of the blame for the torture that took place at S-21, saying: “S-21 was only an instrument of the party.”
 

Once Mr. Lysak finished his questioning for the day, Ms. Guiraud began to ask questions about specific prisoners killed at S-21 and the situation surrounding their arrest, beginning with Chao Seng, founder of the Pedagogical Institute of Cambodia.
 

Mr. Guek Eav was particularly remorseful when asked about Mr. Seng, expressing multiple times that he wished he could meet with his wife and another relative to express his sorrow and anguish about what happened to him.
 

He told the court he had been instructed by superior Son Sen and the “party center” to arrest Mr. Seng, but to give him a different name in S-21’s records.
 

“I could not protect him. That is the truth. For me, Chao Seng did many good things,” he said. “I want to meet them [Mr. Seng’s wife and a relative] to express my regret and apologize that I could not protect their man.”
 

He says he tried to keep Mr. Seng alive, but was asked by Mr. Chea himself where he was and why he was still alive after a few months at S-21.
 

Ms. Guiraud then moved on to four westerners who were killed at S-21, focusing on Michael Scott Deeds and another man, both of whom were captured by Navy forces along the coast.
 

Mr. Guek Eav said once the men were brought to S-21, he was ordered by Mr. Chea to burn their bodies.
 

“He told me in person ‘we are not Cuba, exchanging prisoners for other prisoners or goods’,” he said. “They had to be burned to ashes so that there was no evidence remaining that any westerner was arrested and smashed by us. That was the strict instruction I had to follow.”
 

Mr. Guek Eav said the men were burned along with car tires and their ashes were dumped into a pond along Mao Tse Tung Boulevard.
 

He also took time out to refute the translation of a widely circulated quote attributed to him and to the larger Khmer Rouge propaganda machine by historians and witnesses. The oft-mentioned “It is better to arrest 10 innocent people than let one traitor go” was incorrect, according to Mr. Guek Eav.
 

“This is wrong. It has been mistranslated,” he said. “Son Sen told me ‘to keep is no gain, to remove is no loss’.”

http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/25992/duch-denies-rapes-at-s-21/

DUCH GRILLED ON CHILD MURDERS

In his second day of testimony for Case 002/02 at the Khmer Rouge tribunal yesterday, Kaing Guek Eav, the former head of Khmer Rouge detention center S-21, was grilled by Assistant Prosecutor Dale Lysak about how the Khmer Rouge, and specifically S-21 prison, dealt with relatives of prisoners, children of people who were executed and pregnant women.
 

Mr. Lysak touched on the subject during Mr. Guek Eav’s testimony on Tuesday and continued to dive deeper into understanding how the Khmer Rouge organized the detainment of women and children.
 

“Spouses and children of enemies of the regime were treated the same way as enemies of the regime,” said Mr. Guek Eav, also known as Duch. “Even when senior regime officials were arrested, their wives were arrested too.”
 

But his cadres rarely interrogated wives or children, deeming them “not important.” He claimed that before April 1975, “children were spared and raised. In that time we had no principles to smash children.”
 

But later, he says he was “instructed to kill the wives of soldiers who we thought were spying on us,” illustrating symptoms of the paranoia within the Khmer Rouge regime that would later be touched on as well during his testimony.
 

He described an instance when a group of children was brought to S-21, and he complained to his superiors that “raising children at S-21 was impossible.”
 

“But the party center told me, ‘have a firm stance and separate friends from enemies’,” he said. “I tried my best to rescue the children, but my efforts were not successful.”
 

During the trial for Nuon Chea, Pol Pot’s deputy, and Khieu Samphan, the Khmer Rouge head of state, on a multitude of charges including genocide, Mr. Guek Eav went on to explain that when it came to the children of anyone they deemed a “traitor,” Son Sen himself said revenge should be everyone’s focus, and ‘eye for an eye’ should be a guiding principle.
 

Testimony on family purges then transitioned into the frequent Khmer Rouge purges of its own forces, and what happened to the family members of those killed. Mr. Guek Eav cited his own experience of being fearful of what might happen to him after one of his superiors, Vorn Vet, was arrested in 1978.
 

Mr. Vet and his deputy Cheng Orn were both detained along with their wives.
 

“There was no purpose interrogating the women,” he said. “The main focus was Brother Vorn. I assume his family was smashed.”
As regime forces arrested Mr. Vet, Mr. Guek Eav thought back to a meeting he had with him once, where he was told to be careful and watch who he trusted.
 

“I was so scared I could not work,” he said of the time after Mr. Vet had been arrested. “I had to stay along party lines because I was afraid I would be disappeared. If I was disappeared, my family would be disappeared as well.”
 

The fear and relentless paranoia was intentional, he said. Mr. Sen, head of the Communist Party of Kampuchea’s (CMK) security apparatus, reveled in “instilling fear” in his subordinates.
 

“Everyone was so fearful of being arrested because usually the arrests were done to people who were linked along the same lines,” he told the court. Even the interrogators at S-21, often attempting to confirm the paranoid suspicions of their superiors, were not safe from the purges.
 

Mr. Guek Eav said there were approximately 33 interrogators at S-21 at any given time, but the number fluctuated and often decreased “because some were found to be traitors and had to be smashed.”
 

Despite strict stipulations on so many aspects of life and specifically delineated party structures within the Khmer Rouge, Mr. Guek Eav said there were no specific rules on what to do with the family members of those being interrogated at S-21. Although party leaders told them to kill the children of “traitors” to stop “revenge killings,” Mr. Guek Eav claimed there was nothing specific ever said about what was to be done with detained family members. More often than not, everyone in the family was killed regardless of age, he said.
 

“If he only gave me instructions for four people, and not for the others, then they had to be smashed,” he added. “There was never any instruction not to kill children, women or pregnant women.”
 

Mr. Guek Eav confirmed an official document that said “interrogate four, smash the others,” at the bottom of a list of 18 family members, two of whom were four and six years old. All 18 were killed on April 7, 1977.
 

But throughout all of his testimony yesterday, it was often what he did not remember that ended up being the most harrowing.
 

Mr. Lysak went through a series of very specific instances hoping to get confirmation of murder from Mr. Guek Eav. But his repeated line of “I do not recall” left a disturbing pall in the courtroom. Many times he would say that so many people were killed or moved through S-21 that he was unable to remember specific situations.
 

He gave the same answer to two disturbing questions posed to him. There was a document from S-21 indicating that 160 children had been murdered in one day. Another said eight near-term pregnant women were executed in 1977 after being transported to S-21 from Prey Sar.
 

He could not recall the reason why either group was executed despite signing off on both.

http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/25930/duch-grilled-on-child-murders/

DUCH: NUON CHEA CLAIMS ‘NONSENSE’

Attempting to draw links between Khmer Rouge leader Nuon Chea and infamous Khmer Rouge detention center S-21 prison, Assistant Prosecutor Dale Lysak spent most of the day grilling Kaing Guek Eav, known as Duch to many, on the stand yesterday during Case 002/02 at the Khmer Rouge Tribunal.
 

Mr. Guek Eav, the first Khmer Rouge leader convicted of crimes against humanity in 2010 and sentenced to life in prison, spoke openly about Mr. Chea’s connections to the prison despite his relative reluctance later on to admit that soldiers of the Lon Nol regime had been arrested and killed at the detention center.
 

Mr. Lysak preempted Mr. Guek Eav’s testimony with a 2012 statement from Mr. Chea denying any connection to the prison.
 

“I have never been responsible for the operation of S-21. What Duch accused me of is unjust,” Mr. Chea said. “I have never ordered, or received documents from Duch. I have never been the superior of Duch.”
 

But Mr. Guek Eav refuted that statement immediately, citing direct mention of Mr. Chea by his own superior, Son Sen, and multiple documents signed by Mr. Chea giving direct orders. He also said it was agreed upon at an official party congress that any “traitors” had to be “smashed.”
 

“Everything comes from the party structure. His words are nonsense,” he said.
 

He told a story about a specific order from Mr. Chea involving the murder of Mr. Sen’s uncle and other relatives, illustrating the frequent specificity of Mr. Chea’s orders and his hands-on involvement in the activities of the prison and the Khmer Rouge’s larger security apparatus. Before a short meeting at a school in August 1977, Mr. Guek Eav said he had not met Mr. Chea in person.
 

Mr. Lysak used the rest of the day to focus on the treatment of Lon Nol soldiers after the Khmer Rouge takeover of Phnom Penh. Specifically, he wanted to know who and how many soldiers passed through S-21. But Mr. Guek Eav was often unable to give him the answers he needed, either dodging questions or denying any knowledge of Lon Nol regime soldiers held in S-21.
 

Other than hearing second hand that government soldiers were being rounded up during the evacuation of Phnom Penh, Mr. Guek Eav was unable to directly verify any mass killings of Lon Nol soldiers.
 

“I had no experience dealing with former soldiers,” he said.
 

He did take Mr. Lysak through a shortened version of his own path to leadership, telling the court he was initially tasked with searching the homes of former Lon Nol soldiers and even Lon Nol’s home itself, gathering documents and hiding them at S-21. By October 1975, his boss was sent to the battlefront and he was chosen as his replacement.
 

The cross examination then turned to specific deaths at S-21, ranging from the uncle of Ta Nat, Mr. Guek Eav’s superior at S-21, and relatives of Long Boret, the prime minister from 1973 to 1975. In one instance, Mr. Guek Eav inadvertently described a horrifyingly routine practice at S-21 of prisoners being used for live surgical experiments.
 

But the point of the line of questioning seemed to concern the deaths of family members of notable Cambodians aligned with movements or forces opposing the Khmer Rouge, potentially pointing to involvement and direct orders from senior Khmer Rouge leaders like Mr. Chea.
 

When asked about the fate of the wife and young children of a professor who was killed during protests preceding the Khmer Rouge takeover of Phnom Penh, Mr. Guek Eav said he could not remember specifically what happened to them, but knew how most prisoners at S-21 ended up.
 

“After the revolution, if the parents were killed, the children were killed as well,” he said. “As long as he was arrested, he or she was never released.”

http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/25872/duch--noun-chea-claims----nonsense---/